In response the Manchester student group 'Action Palestine' are busy organizing protests. On facebook they explain:
we are calling a Protest against Israeli War Crimes in Palestine at 2 pm outside the Students Union steps before the Pol Soc meeting on the 18th to show Mrs Talya Lador-Fresher that neither she or the state she represents are welcome on the premises of our democratically run Union that prides itself on being a student-run establishment which does not endorse nor fund apartheid regimes responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians.I'm not altogether sure what they mean when they say 'neither she or the state she represents' are welcome in the Manchester Union. What does it mean to say that 'the state of Israel' is not welcome? I understand saying 'the officials of the state' are not welcome, but the state itself? A citizen of a state is a part of that state. Are Israelis not to be welcome in Manchester Student Union anymore? That's what the message seems to be - even if it is, as I presume, the inadvertent result of a careless writing mistake.
But the really striking thing about all this is that only recently Manchester University was graced by Assam Tamimi, a Hamas supporter on record as having supported suicide bombing. Did Action Palestine kick up a fuss? No. Clearly they're not too bothered by article's 7 and 13 of the Hamas charter, which goes on about the day of judgement coming when muslims 'kill the Jews' (not 'Israelis') and expressly rejects 'peaceful solutions.'
Tamimi never supported suicide bombing.
ReplyDeleteHamas have never adopted that 1988 charter since coming to power in 2006.
A citizen does not equal the state, a representative (such as a government minister or ambassador) equals 'the state'. When I commit a crime outside our borders, it is not the UK who commits that crime, but me alone.
Lador-Fresher represents a government that currently suffocates Gaza and continues to illegally annex the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and she also represented the previous government that massacred 1400 Gazans a year ago. She will be held to account.
Wounded Hamster, I encourage you to read the transcripts of a BBC interview with Tamimi which you can find here: http://www.geocities.com/martinkramerorg/Documents/TamimiHardtalk.htm
ReplyDeleteI've pasted some if it in below. You would have to be a remarkably generous reader to interpret him as not supporting suicide bombing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And meanwhile you advocate the suicide bombing. You said on an internet chat forum early in 2003: 'For us Moslems martyrdom is not the end of things but the beginning of the most wonderful of things'.
If it's so wonderful to go and blow yourself up in a public place in Israel why don't you do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
Martyrdom is not necessarily suicide bombings as you call then. Martyrdom is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, please answer my question. It was a serious question.
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
I'm trying to answer it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why don't you do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
I'm trying to answer it because this is a concept. Unless it is explained, how can you answer it? Because martyrdom means giving / sacrificing yourself for a noble cause. Now these bombings, the human bombs ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you prepared to do this or not?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
I am prepared, of course.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You would [go] and blow yourself up?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
No. I'm trying to explain to you ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ah – so it's okay. So that's just for the poor and the disillusioned to go and blow themselves up? You would not be prepared to do it ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
Most of the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... you advocate other people to do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
Unless you give me a chance to explain ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please ... Please ...
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
Not a single person of those who bomb themselves, bomb themselves because they are desperate or poor. It doesn't happen because of this. They do it because they want to sacrifice themselves for a cause after all avenues have been closed before them. If the Palestinians today are given F16s and Apache helicopters ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No – please come back to my question. Please come back to my question. Why if it is so glorious and honourable to do this, why don't you do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
I would do it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
If I have the opportunity I would do it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When are you going to do it?
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI
When? If I can go to Palestine and sacrifice myself I would do it. Why not?
Two other points:
ReplyDelete(1)You write that 'Hamas have never adopted that 1988 charter since coming to power in 2006.' The important point is that they have never revoked it or distanced themselves from it.
(2)On the whole business of citizen vs official of a state. You are right that a citizen does not 'equal' the state. Of course I never said that they did. They are a part of the state. Lador-Fresher also does not 'equal' the state, as you seem to imply. To use your example, if she commits a crime in England, say shoplifting, it is her who commits the crime and not the state of Israel.
In any case, as I said before, while I could understand saying that no official of a state would be welcome, saying the same for the state itself - that seems strange to me.
Lifted straight from the event wall:
ReplyDeleteHi all,
I realise the last minute nature of this message, but that's because the announcement itself was last minute: the Israeli's have pulled out on grounds of security, the fact threats had been recieved and the possibility of large protests overwhelming security meant they deemed our Union 'high risk', and therefore cancelled.
They didn't mention Dubai...
I can't begin to say how sorry I am to you all, trust me i'm particularly disappointed. And worried our Union now has a reputation for being a risk for external speakers, which reflects badly on us all.
However, the right to protest is something to be cherished, it is just a shame the cost is what would certainly have been an engaging and interesting event.
Keep your eyes on our newsletter and facebook group at http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2210237853&ref=ts
for upcoming events.
yours,
Jonathan Ridge
President of Manchester Politics Society
also, See Jewish Chronicle website for article already up.
I had originally heard that Tamimi had supported suicide bombings, so I read that interview to find out if it was true. As can be seen, Tim Sebastian (who's usually a good interviewer) keeps interrupting him in order to not allow him to distinguish between 'martyrdom' and 'suicide bombing'. Soldiers see themselves as 'martyrs', it doesn't mean they need to kill themselves in order to become this.
ReplyDeleteDR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI:
"Martyrdom is not necessarily suicide bombings"
"martyrdom means giving / sacrificing yourself for a noble cause"
TIM SEBASTIAN:
"You would [go] and blow yourself up?"
DR AZZAM AL-TAMIMI:
"No."
He explicitly states that he believes in being a 'martyr' for the Palestinians, and that this is not necessarily suicide bombing. The most you could assume from his statements is that he won't explicitly condemn suicide bombing, but it's really quite a stretch to say that he supports it, based on these comments.
As for the Hamas charter, it is enough that they do not wish to associate it with themselves today. Hamas supporters like the aforementioned Tamimi have called parts of the document 'ridiculous' and not compatible with Hamas' current aims.
In contrast, the current Israeli leader celebrates and glorifies Zionist terrorism from before Israel was established. Netanyahu praises the Irgun (of which former Prime Minister Begin was a leader) and its terrorist activities against civilians. Have a read at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece
Lador-Fresher represents the Israeli state, this is in fact her raison d'être as an Ambassador. She is afforded diplomatic immunity and other benefits not given to ordinary Israeli citizens abroad. It is obvious that she 'equals' the state in a way an ordinary Israeli does not. She is not being protested against specifically as an individual (though she had some rather nasty apologetics for Israeli war crimes last year when she visited Manchester during the Gaza bombardment) but as an Ambassador, the embodiment of the Israeli state in the UK. If she (and her superior Ron Prosor) does not 'equal' the Israeli state here in Britain, nothing does. Her words carry far more weight to those who support the BDS campaign than the words of a company or organisation only affiliated with Israel.
Were a representative of apartheid South Africa to visit our Union in the 1980s, we would all be right there protesting, as any decent human being would. A representative of a state that continues to occupy, suffocate, and murder the native population is at least as worthy of opposition as would representatives of the South African National Party. Both states were/are egrarious violators of international law, I condemn both.
Wounded hamster, you clearly are a remarkably generous reader. Either that or you have a strange definition on 'support.' If you read what you quoted in cits ontext - which I've provided in the passage quoted above - it is quite clear that, even if Tamimi would not be a suicide bomber himself, he supports others who do. As you said yourself, he doesn't condemn them, despite opportunity after opportunity to do so.
ReplyDeleteI don't actually think we're in so much disagreement when it comes to the status of Talya Lador-Fresher. Yes, obviously she is a representative of the state in a way that I am not. That is why, as I've already indicated, I could understand saying that 'representatives' or 'officials' of the state are not welcome. What I don't get is saying that the state itself is not welcome. We're going in circles here, but if we accept the standard definition of a state - a territorially defined population with a monopoly on force - it follows that all the state's citizens are members of that state, members of that 'territorially defined population.'
Dear Blogger,
ReplyDeleteOnce again you are arguing about semantics instead of the essence. Do you think that any of your readers care about a definition of a speaker? Does it matter if the speaker represents the state, or in Hamster’s opinion it is the state itself?
While you are arguing about “Definitions” you seem to have little problem with Hamster’s attempts in presenting Tamimi as a dear old man who offers sweets to children.
This hideous man speaks for an organization that boast of “using women and children as defence shield”, it then does exactly that. This organisation lynches Palestinians in broad day light; its man throw cuffed Palestinians of buildings, and it describes blowing up buses and restaurants, the murder of women and children, as “Martyrdom”. Hamster himself quotes Tamimi as saying “Martyrdom is not necessarily suicide bombings”.
And you dear blogger, all you are concern with is whether a speaker speaks as herself or as her state?
Oxford must be proud of students like you.
Tooly, did you actually read what I wrote?
ReplyDelete"But the really striking thing about all this is that only recently Manchester University was graced by Assam Tamimi, a Hamas supporter on record as having supported suicide bombing. Did Action Palestine kick up a fuss? No. Clearly they're not too bothered by article's 7 and 13 of the Hamas charter, which goes on about the day of judgement coming when muslims 'kill the Jews' (not 'Israelis') and expressly rejects 'peaceful solutions.'"
Clearly I do have a problem with Tamimi and Hamas. Perhaps you have a problem with reading what I have written.
Did you actually right that?
ReplyDeleteGuess what? It was kind of lost on me when you got bogged down on the importance of definition.
It should of course read “Did you actually left that?” :)
ReplyDelete